Kosovo and Us - Revision history

Mathieugp at 20:04, 29 January 2011

2011-01-29T20:04:39Z

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	[[Category:Translations]]		[[Category:Translations]]
	[[Category:20th century]]		[[Category:20th century]]
			[[Category:2008]]

Mathieugp: /* Notes */

2008-08-20T18:45:15Z

Notes

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	{{GFDL}}		{{GFDL}}
	[[Category:Translations]]		[[Category:Translations]]
			[[Category:20th century]]

Mathieugp at 16:30, 1 April 2008

2008-04-01T16:30:40Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:30, 1 April 2008
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	{{GFDL}}		{{GFDL}}
			[[Category:Translations]]

Liberlogos at 05:49, 7 March 2008

2008-03-07T05:49:34Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:49, 7 March 2008
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	{{title\|Kosovo and Us\|[[Wikipedia:Joseph Facal\|Joseph Facal]]\|February 20, 2008<br /><br />~~Excerpt translated~~ by [[User:Liberlogos\|Benoît Rheault]] from:<br /><br />''[http://www.josephfacal.org/le-kosovo-et-nous/#more-229 Le blogue de Joseph Facal]''}}		{{title\|Kosovo and Us\|[[Wikipedia:Joseph Facal\|Joseph Facal]]\|February 20, 2008<br /><br />Translated by [[User:Liberlogos\|Benoît Rheault]] from:<br /><br />''[http://www.josephfacal.org/le-kosovo-et-nous/#more-229 Le blogue de Joseph Facal]''}}

	It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.		It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.

Mathieugp: gallicisms

2008-03-04T16:05:46Z

gallicisms

Liberlogos: /* To each their own context */

2008-03-04T08:27:40Z

To each their own context

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:27, 4 March 2008
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	For a long time, we have been told also that the right of peoples to self-determination could be called upon only in cases of peoples in a [[Wikipedia:Colonialism\|colonial situation]], or when the State which one wishes to leave is not a [[Wikipedia:Democracy\|democracy]].		For a long time, we have been told also that the right of peoples to self-determination could be called upon only in cases of peoples in a [[Wikipedia:Colonialism\|colonial situation]], or when the State which one wishes to leave is not a [[Wikipedia:Democracy\|democracy]].

	Kosovo is however not a colony, and [[Wikipedia:Serbia\|Serbia]] of today is an undeniable democracy.		Kosovo is however not a colony, and the [[Wikipedia:Serbia\|Serbia]] of today is an undeniable democracy.

	Ah, but Kosovars, they suffered, we are told. That is true, but what is the degree of suffering necessary to qualify oneself? And who ultimately judges?		Ah, but Kosovars, they suffered, we are told. That is true, but what is the degree of suffering necessary to qualify oneself? And who ultimately judges?

Liberlogos at 05:38, 4 March 2008

2008-03-04T05:38:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:38, 4 March 2008
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	{{title\|Kosovo and Us\|[[Joseph Facal]]\|February 20, 2008<br /><br />Excerpt translated by [[User:Liberlogos\|Benoît Rheault]] from:<br /><br />''[http://www.josephfacal.org/le-kosovo-et-nous/#more-229 Le blogue de Joseph Facal]''}}		{{title\|Kosovo and Us\|[[Wikipedia:Joseph Facal\|Joseph Facal]]\|February 20, 2008<br /><br />Excerpt translated by [[User:Liberlogos\|Benoît Rheault]] from:<br /><br />''[http://www.josephfacal.org/le-kosovo-et-nous/#more-229 Le blogue de Joseph Facal]''}}

	It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.		It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.

Liberlogos at 05:34, 4 March 2008

2008-03-04T05:34:47Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:34, 4 March 2008
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	== False obviousness ==		== False obviousness ==

			[[Image:Joseph Facal.jpg\|thumb\|right\|Former Quebec minister, Uruguay-born Joseph Facal.]]

	For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.		For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.

Liberlogos at 05:26, 4 March 2008

2008-03-04T05:26:29Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:26, 4 March 2008
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	The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and deep. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|Kosovar case]] is elsewhere.		The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and deep. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|Kosovar case]] is elsewhere.

	For years, people ~~seeks~~ to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but only one and single way of obtaining [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.		For years, some people seek to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but only one and single way of obtaining [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.

	== False obviousness ==		== False obviousness ==

Liberlogos at 05:25, 4 March 2008

2008-03-04T05:25:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:25, 4 March 2008
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	It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.		It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.

	The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and deep. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:~~Independence~~ of ~~Kosovo~~\|Kosovar]] ~~case~~ is elsewhere.		The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and deep. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|Kosovar case]] is elsewhere.

	For years, people seeks to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but only one and single way of obtaining [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.		For years, people seeks to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but only one and single way of obtaining [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.
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	For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.		For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.

	From time immemorial, we have been presented as gospel the idea that almost unanimous recognition of the international community would be needed. Nothing as such here. Even powers like [[Wikipedia:China\|China]] and [[Wikipedia:Russia\|Russia]] are opposed to the [[Wikipedia:~~Independence~~ of ~~Kosovo~~\|independence of Kosovo]].		From time immemorial, we have been presented as gospel the idea that almost unanimous recognition of the international community would be needed. Nothing as such here. Even powers like [[Wikipedia:China\|China]] and [[Wikipedia:Russia\|Russia]] are opposed to the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|independence of Kosovo]].

	No [[Wikipedia:referendum\|referendum]] in Kosovo either. Obviously, it would be pure madness to start arguing that a referendum would not be necessary [[Wikipedia:Quebec referendum\|in the case of Quebec]].		No [[Wikipedia:referendum\|referendum]] in Kosovo either. Obviously, it would be pure madness to start arguing that a referendum would not be necessary [[Wikipedia:Quebec referendum\|in the case of Quebec]].

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:25, 4 March 2008
Line 3:		Line 3:
	It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.		It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.

	The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and deep. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:~~Independence~~ of ~~Kosovo~~\|Kosovar]] ~~case~~ is elsewhere.		The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and deep. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|Kosovar case]] is elsewhere.

	For years, people seeks to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but only one and single way of obtaining [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.		For years, people seeks to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but only one and single way of obtaining [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.
Line 11:		Line 11:
	For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.		For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.

	From time immemorial, we have been presented as gospel the idea that almost unanimous recognition of the international community would be needed. Nothing as such here. Even powers like [[Wikipedia:China\|China]] and [[Wikipedia:Russia\|Russia]] are opposed to the [[Wikipedia:~~Independence~~ of ~~Kosovo~~\|independence of Kosovo]].		From time immemorial, we have been presented as gospel the idea that almost unanimous recognition of the international community would be needed. Nothing as such here. Even powers like [[Wikipedia:China\|China]] and [[Wikipedia:Russia\|Russia]] are opposed to the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|independence of Kosovo]].

	No [[Wikipedia:referendum\|referendum]] in Kosovo either. Obviously, it would be pure madness to start arguing that a referendum would not be necessary [[Wikipedia:Quebec referendum\|in the case of Quebec]].		No [[Wikipedia:referendum\|referendum]] in Kosovo either. Obviously, it would be pure madness to start arguing that a referendum would not be necessary [[Wikipedia:Quebec referendum\|in the case of Quebec]].

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:05, 4 March 2008
Line 3:		Line 3:
	It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.		It is quite a thing to witness the zeal with which our [[Wikipedia:Quebec federalist ideology\|federalist]] elites explain us that [[Wikipedia:Kosovo\|Kosovo]] and [[Wikipedia:Quebec\|Quebec]] have have nothing, strictly nothing to do with each other.

	The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and ~~deep~~. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|Kosovar case]] is elsewhere.		The differences between Quebec and Kosovo are indeed numerous and profound. But the interest of the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|Kosovar case]] is elsewhere.

	For years, some people ~~seek~~ to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but ~~only one and~~ single way ~~of obtaining~~ [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.		For years, some people have sought to convince Quebecers that there would be, throughout the world, but a single way to obtain [[Wikipedia:Independence\|independence]]. We see now that this question is infinitely more complex.

	== False obviousness ==		== False obviousness ==
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	For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.		For example, we have been told for a long time that those who wished to leave had to get the permission of the State they wanted to leave, which excluded by definition a [[Wikipedia:Unilateral declaration of independence\|unilateral declaration of independence]]. Kosovo illustrates that another way is theoretically possible.

	From time immemorial, we have been presented as gospel the idea that almost unanimous recognition of the international community would be needed. Nothing as such here. Even powers like [[Wikipedia:China\|China]] and [[Wikipedia:Russia\|Russia]] are opposed to the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|independence of Kosovo]].		From time immemorial, we have been presented as gospel the idea that an almost unanimous recognition of the international community would be needed. Nothing as such here. Even powers like [[Wikipedia:China\|China]] and [[Wikipedia:Russia\|Russia]] are opposed to the [[Wikipedia:2008 Kosovo declaration of independence\|independence of Kosovo]].

	No [[Wikipedia:referendum\|referendum]] in Kosovo either. Obviously, it would be pure madness to start arguing that a referendum would not be necessary [[Wikipedia:Quebec referendum\|in the case of Quebec]].		No [[Wikipedia:referendum\|referendum]] in Kosovo either. Obviously, it would be pure madness to start arguing that a referendum would not be necessary [[Wikipedia:Quebec referendum\|in the case of Quebec]].

	One sees on the other hand to what degree it is intellectually dishonest to put the ~~threshold of~~ 55% suggested by the [[Wikipedia:European Union\|European Union]] in the case of the [[Wikipedia:Montenegro referendum\|referendum held in Montenegro]] as a precedent having from now on the force of law.		One sees on the other hand to what degree it is intellectually dishonest to put the 55% threshold suggested by the [[Wikipedia:European Union\|European Union]] in the case of the [[Wikipedia:Montenegro referendum\|referendum held in Montenegro]] as a precedent having from now on the force of law.

	== To each their own context ==		== To each their own context ==

	For a long time, we have been told ~~also~~ that the right of peoples to self-determination could be called upon only in cases of peoples in a [[Wikipedia:Colonialism\|colonial situation]], or when the State which one wishes to leave is not a [[Wikipedia:Democracy\|democracy]].		For a long time, we have also been told that the right of peoples to self-determination could be called upon only in cases of peoples in a [[Wikipedia:Colonialism\|colonial situation]], or when the State which one wishes to leave is not a [[Wikipedia:Democracy\|democracy]].

	Kosovo is however not a colony, and the [[Wikipedia:Serbia\|Serbia]] of today is an undeniable democracy.		Kosovo is however not a colony, and the [[Wikipedia:Serbia\|Serbia]] of today is an undeniable democracy.

	Ah, but Kosovars, they suffered, we are told. That is true, but what is the degree of suffering necessary to qualify ~~oneself~~? And who ultimately judges?		Ah, but Kosovars, they suffered, we are told. That is true, but what is the degree of suffering necessary to qualify? And who ultimately judges on it?

	Beyond the legal aspects, we hear sometimes that ~~the~~ small size and [[Wikipedia:Globalization\|globalization]] make the ~~statute~~ of a Sovereign state negligible. Kosovars do not seem to think so.		Beyond the legal aspects, we hear sometimes that small size and [[Wikipedia:Globalization\|globalization]] make the status of a Sovereign state negligible. Kosovars do not seem to think so.

	== Two conditions ==		== Two conditions ==
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	Is it to say that there are no rules, that this gap in the law is absolute? Neither.		Is it to say that there are no rules, that this gap in the law is absolute? Neither.

	There are indeed some generally understood principles of [[Wikipedia:international law\|international law]] regarding secession. But essentially, international law adjusts ~~with~~ political reality, rather than the opposite.		There are indeed some generally understood principles of [[Wikipedia:international law\|international law]] regarding secession. But essentially, international law adjusts to political reality, rather than the opposite.

	At the core of it all, two essential criteria settle a case.		At the core of it all, two essential criteria settle a case.

	Do those declaring independence have an effective control on the territory they claim? And is there a clear political will on behalf of a majority of the population in question to gain independence?		Do those declaring independence have an effective control over the territory they claim? And is there a clear political will on behalf of a majority of the population in question to gain independence?

	Generally, in these matters, there is more gray area than black and white. We simply have to be aware of it.		Generally, in these matters, there is more gray area than black and white. We simply have to be aware of it.